Top advice from Shiran Brodie, Head of Marketing at Make (previously Integromat)
"When I'm sitting in an interview with someone I don't want to just know about straightforward answers to questions. I really want to hear this, the psychology behind the decisions that they've made, both good decisions and bad decisions. I often find that mistakes and failures are key to growing and to moving forward'
Shiran has not only achieved a lot as Head of Marketing, but she's also a great leader, and her advice to strive in both roles is worth its weight in gold.
This article is a transcript of episode #12.
To navigate through the article and the episode, here are the different topics that we discussed, with the timestamps:
1.27 to 5.57: Shiran talks about her career and the different steps she accomplished before being hired at Make.
6.15 to 9.10: About the nocode tools and how it helps businesses.
9.11 to 13.10: Shiran explains how she built her skills and exceeded expectations to take over her role.
13.41 to 15.26: About the lack of female role models in tech
15.40 to 18.50: Shiran explains the challenges a Head of Marketing faces.
19.13 to 21.58: A unique insight into Integromat’s name change into Make.
22.13 to 23.46: Shiran confides what will be her next career step.
24.12 to 28.22: The qualities that she looks for in her team.
28.42 to 32.47: Her career advice.
33.07 to 35.53: About diversity and why it’s good for companies.
35.54 to 42.05: About working in tech as a woman and looking for help.
Aurelie 00:00
But let's start. How are you feeling today? Shiran Brodie 00:03
I'm very good. How are you? Aurelie 00:05
I'm good, I'm good. I mean, the weather is fantastic here in France, so my mood goes with the sun! So welcome to TechLipstick! Thank you for joining me. Shiran Brodie 00:23
Thank you for having me. Aurelie 00:24
Yeah, you're welcome. So, let's start. Can you introduce yourself shortly? And then we will of course go into more detail.
Shiran Brodie
Sure yeah. I'm Sharon. I'm head of marketing at Make, which used to be Integromat. I have been with Make for about 2 and a half years and before that my history is leading marketing in various types of tech startups.
Aurelie 00:55
Great, thank you. Thank you for this brief introduction. So, we're going to discuss in detail what you're doing and what it means to work in tech and then if you're OK, we will explore the topic that I know you have at heart as well, which is promoting women in tech. So can you be more specific about your background, your studies, why you were attracted to technology at that time?
Shiran Brodie 01:27
Sure. So actually, I studied English literature and history and university. What actually really interested me in marketing was something else. I had a local gym or fitness center in my neighborhood where I went to university and it wasn't profitable, it wasn't doing very well, and I put together a marketing plan to help make the gym profitable and I was given an opportunity to take it over for a few years. This is while I was still in university and the idea of being able to take the lead on something at a young age. I believe I was only like 21-22 at the time, which made me really interested in all the aspects of being able to build a business, but especially being able to lead marketing and shortly after that I got an opportunity to do some type of content role at Google. And after that I kind of expanded and started to be very interested in tech startups, primarily because the industry is very modern. Like the gym I was working in, it's a very male-dominated industry, but the idea of being able to have visibility across not just marketing but also a modern way of running companies was very fascinating to me. And slowly I started, I was working remotely, and I started to just kind of take these different positions in all areas of marketing, but rather than just staying within those positions, I was very interested in how those positions interacted within teams, and also how they interacted across other teams within the company. And slowly that's how I started. I would say rising from very entry level position to into leading because my dream has always been to lead, but more importantly it's been able to actually bring and unite people together and that's kind of where, how I've ended up where I am. I think tech primarily is such a modern industry and I think more importantly, there's just so much opportunity. But for a long time, it just was always seen as something too technical and something that I think stereotypically women are kind of made to feel like they don't belong and that's something that I saw for me, something very different than what I think the stereotype was.
Aurelie 03:54
Yeah, I understand. That's interesting. So, what brought you to work for a tech company was this opportunity at Google? or were you [attracted to tech] because you work in marketing, which is by essence very oriented to what is new and what is also tech? Is that where finally, you found this field really interesting and where you found that you could strive? Shiran Brodie 04:37
Actually, what's interesting is that I wouldn't say it was primarily that. I would say that being in marketing even in my history is in small businesses and I would say really brought me to the tech. The area tech that I'm in which you saw us is the love of products. So, I found that there were certain types of tools that enabled me to go to do work much better and then it was like not only a modern approach to technology, like in terms of the tech scene, but also how it enabled me to do my work. And I found that I've also had worked for a travel startup, travel tech startup for a while, and I was using all different types of SaaS tools, and I just started falling in love with these tools and products. I think tech products have transformed over the years with SaaS. They've turned from kind of these cold B2B products into products that you just fall in love with because of the way they help, they enable you to do your work. And I think the first product I actually really felt that with was Airtable, for instance. And so that really kind of switched my view from wanting to be in other types of industries to wanting to be in SaaS tech, B2B tech, primarily because of the love for products and how products were able to continuously evolve so fast with the market and with their customers.
Aurelie 05:58
I can feel that it's something that passionate you. So can you describe a little bit more in detail your current company and the field it operates in so that we understand also its activities?
Shiran Brodie 06:15
The company I work for is called Make, used to be Integromat. It's a visual automation platform. It's similar to competitors like Zapier, Workato. It's a platform that visualize this back-end development through connecting API's and it's been around for quite some time. As I mentioned I joined 2 and a half years ago. Before I joined Integromat, I had been working with Zapier and what was really amazing for me is how it transformed the way I was able to do work. I had been working at a different startup at the time and spending a lot of time on manual work and when I first used an audit workflow automation tool, all of a sudden, I was able to focus so much on more of the psychology, the strategy, and not having to spend so much time doing these manual data entries. And then when it came to Integromat at the time, which is what it was called, I fell in love with the tool almost immediately because I'm a very visual person. And the idea that something that's once again going back to tech, something like back in development, is so guarded because unless you can code, it's very difficult to understand what's happening in the back-end, idea that you could visualize it was so powerful for me and really made me so excited to come into this company and to help build the marketing strategy, the brand, and everything for Make and then that's kind of where it brought me today. It's, I mean, it can be used for building prototypes, building workflows, automating pretty much anything in your business. And it's had a really profound impact on us internally as well because we use it for almost all of our processes. So yeah. Aurelie 08:02
Yeah, it's really changing the way we can approach product development, right with these so-called nocode tools. I think it's something that it's a kind of a revolution, right?
Shiran Brodie 08:21
I would say so. I think that what's really empowering about it and why it's also really trying to steer this new era in technology is because the market is changing constantly, and businesses are really struggling to compete, and I've always felt very partial to small businesses. That's where my background is from. What I loved about no code is the idea that small business owners who don't have access to certain types of software because it's expensive or can't afford developers, developers are very difficult to source, they're able to actually use these nocode tools to build out oftentimes the framework of their businesses, and it helps them go so much faster. We've seen so many businesses that have been able to succeed go for further rounds of funding simply because they were able to automate and build so many aspects of their business with no code. So, it's really empowering.
Aurelie 09:11
Fantastic, thank you for sharing that; and I'd like maybe for our audience to come back a little bit on the different steps that led you to be head of marketing, not maybe in terms of companies, but more in the different roles that help you build your career.
Shiran Brodie
Yes, and so, I would say, I'm wondering how far back I should go, but I can kind of talk about specific milestones if that helps. So, I had mentioned this was not in tech, but and I know that it's not in tech, but I think it's very, it was a very pivotal moment for me when I was younger, and I was able to take over this fitness center. I had 12 employees under me and I, as I mentioned I built a marketing plan, but what I didn't mention is that it's also a very, it was a very male-dominated place and for me the role that I had at the time was very different than what would be traditional marketing roles at tech companies. I was kind of building every aspect of how to market this business, how to make it profitable and being able to wear all these different hats. But also, more importantly, to have the experience of leading people, a very non-traditional team as well, was very important because it gave me the confidence that I needed to feel comfortable to do many different types of roles. And after that, when I worked for Google I was doing content writing. After that, I was kind of moving into a content management role and I was learning basically all of the execution-style tasks, but more importantly how to do them yourself. So oftentimes when people graduate, they might go into bigger corporate companies. Working in startups, you actually really get the hands-on experience, so, you're going through the motions. You don't often have people to ask. I would not say I had any strong leaders at the time, which might have been a disadvantage for me, but I think what it actually did was empower me to make decisions, to learn by being hands-on and to really have the confidence to build things on my own. And so that's kind of what I did for a while. And then slowly as I started to gain that type of experience and I really studied the market, I spent so much time reading. I spent a lot of time interviewing customers, learning how the market was changing. And then from there, I started to do a lot of consulting work. I spent a lot of time doing SEO and in these different areas of marketing. So much of it touches upon one another, but more importantly, when you can really carve a niche out for yourself when you can become very well versed in it. You don't have to be well versed in everything, but well versed in some areas and then really be able to communicate with other marketers to understand the strengths of these different channels. And then slowly but surely you start to build a very or I started to build kind of, I think someone had once said a kind of a Jack of all trades and it's funny. And marketing being a Jack of all trades under having an understanding of everything and how it works together is very critical. And that's really what I would say. When I got to Integromat, I moved into a head of marketing role almost immediately because I put together a strategy of plan for how I saw the market. I was hired originally just for SEO. My previous company had closed because of COVID and I joined Integromat right at the very beginning of COVID, and I went so far and beyond what was just what I was hired for because I didn't just see SEO. I saw the whole landscape of what marketing needed to be at this company. I saw that there was a gap between us and the customer base. I saw that, there were so many things that had to be fixed, so many problems that I wanted to come up with solutions for. And that's slowly how I was able to kind of build this from the ground up. I came in, built a strategy and started building a team and incrementally started to evolve over time.
Aurelie 13:11
That's great. That's something that is always interesting to see is how daring and also how just picking up the challenge can be rewarding. So, did you, I wanted to ask you this question, did you get inspired by other women? And especially women in tech? Shiran Brodie 13:41
This is a very good question. At the time, and I think this is a really important thing to say at the time, it was very, when I went into what I was doing, I don't think that there was a specific woman or a specific person. I think that. And what I found, actually, more very motivating and pivotal for me is actually the absence of women that I saw in tech and slowly over the years I've started to see more women pop up, but I haven't seen enough. And that's something that for me, I always felt like I didn't understand why. I understood, but I also it felt wrong to me that I didn't see as many women high up in technology as I should. And so, what I started to do was I started to pay attention to different types of articles really looking at more of the challenges of women in tech, the challenges of what it is to be a female in a male-dominated tech workspace and start to think about how can I, how do you exist in these male-dominated? Races and be a woman but still hold all of the best traits that it requires to be a female in these spaces. And so, while I wouldn't say it was one woman in particular, I will say that I have, I spent a lot of time on LinkedIn. I spent a lot of time, like within the industry, reading, and I've followed, I would say I pay more attention to women than I do men because their challenges are often quite different, and learning from them has always been inspiring for me. But I think it's more of seeing the diversity of women in work in these workplaces than it has been just one pivotal role model for me.
Aurelie 15:27
I understand. So, what would you say are your top challenges? I mean, not necessarily as a woman, but as a head of marketing for your company?
Shiran Brodie 15:40
This is a great question. So marketing is very challenging because first I think that it's very and this is something that I experienced quite a lot is that you're in between so many teams. So, when the company is very small, marketing takes on a lot of the work than other teams might normally take on as the company grows. But in the beginning, you're kind of managing everything. You're the writers, you're this, you're that. So, you're doing, you're wearing so many hats. And then, when I joined Integromat, I was the forty seventh person who joined the company. Now we're over 200 people. We've scaled significantly in two years. And I can't even begin to touch upon those challenges, but I would say one of the biggest ones is when all of these teams start to come in, more demand starts to get made of you. And I think product and marketing are two different teams, but they have similar challenges in that everyone wants to touch the product, everyone wants to make changes to the product. But a product manager, a product can only be built through engineers. And people know that. They can't actually take the role of engineers because coding is very scary to a lot of people. It's a language they don't understand. They wouldn't even try to begin thinking that they could actually touch or do anything to the product. On the other hand, with marketing, I think the people really underestimate how difficult marketing is, all of the challenges that are in the market. And as Head of marketing, you're not only trying to protect your team, helping to set the vision, helping to set the quarterly projects, the campaigns, but you're also filtering everything that comes top down to make sure that they can focus on the work they have. Also managing all of the requests that come from other teams, all the requests that come from C level, and often times it's a split between how do you stay current, how do you innovate, how do you keep up with the market trends while also maintaining all the expectations of others around you and keeping the trust that what you're doing and that your team is able to perform without having to, I think, answer to every demand that comes around the company. And that's I would say is primarily the biggest challenge.
And then I would say the second is communication, I think. You deal with so many. I've always felt like emotional intelligence is one of the most underrated but key skill sets that's required not just to be a head of marketing, but to be the head of any, the leader of any team, really have to understand people at a deeper level, and I can of course go into that later. But I think that the challenge here is when you deal with a lot of frustrating situations regularly, how are you able to set the expectations? How are you able to communicate effectively and help others understand where you're at? How do you create a sense of empathy for both sides of different teams without creating, I would say, walls between them, or any type of arguments or disagreements that there are a lot of hats that are a head of marketing has to wear, but I think one of the most important ones is being able to navigate workplace politics, at workplace conflicts and being able to help teams work well together, understand.
Aurelie
And one of them, to me, one of the most difficult things, it has to do with the brand, and you did that, you led Make to change its name. Can you just explain us a little bit about that? Shiran Brodie 19:13
That was probably one of the most challenging projects I've done in my career. It's also one that I am most proud of, if not the most proud of. Brand is so interesting because it seems very surface level to a lot of people. It seems like it's just a name, it's just colors. It's just, it's actually so much deeper. It's the soul of a company and it's so easy to get wrong. And when I started the strategy, the first thing I did was I spent, and it's the first two weeks in my company, I spent weeks just interviewing customers, our users, getting to know them on a very deep level, understanding how they feel about our product and then of course interviewing, spending time with our C level, spending time with our internal employees and thinking how do we tie all of these different cords together and create a identity that resonates, that really matches the product and that's what it's about. It's not about replacing the product, it's not about setting the vision for the product. It's ensuring that they align. And so that project was very difficult because one, it wasn't just a simple evolution, it was it was really a revolution of a brand, so there were many steps that went into it. Of course, the name was one of the most challenging aspects. I can't give too many details here, but what I can say is that it took us a year just for the name alone. After that we had to set the visual identity. We did work with an agency on helping to manage the workshops, doing the logo type things as this. But I think the most difficult thing once we had those things ready is we had, and not many people know this, actually we had only 2 and a half months to launch a new brand, a new product, a new name, a new positioning, new pricing, new everything. And in order for that to happen, you need to be able to not only lead the strategy, but you have to help unite every team and get them working together. Because the timeline is so short that it's so easy to mess something up and go and go wrong. And what was really incredible for me was watching every team in tandem work together across the entire company. Even though so many teams are new, so many people were new, we were scaling so fast. But the ability to actually unify everyone and get us all speaking the same language, get us ready to launch one thing together, I think that was. I've never experienced anything like it was the most challenging thing I've ever done. But as mentioned before, I think it did a really amazing job before. I think everyone was scattered with Integromat after. Now everyone kind of unites under a common theme and that brand is really what unifies everyone.
Aurelie 21:59
It's fascinating. Congratulations on achieving that. This is great! Can you tell us, and I know you want to talk about it, can you tell us about your next career move?
Shiran Brodie 22:13
Yes, so for me, Make was very pivotal for me because it was a chance to really build something from the ground up, which was my team and was the brand. And I think, having been in this space now for a few years, I realized that I want to stay intact, but I have a really big passion for the no code, low code space. And so, my next move will be working for a startup called Plasmic. There are visual UI builder. For custom dev stacks, for code stacks, they are also no code - low code. And for me this is a really amazing next step because I'm joining as a Chief Growth officer. And this time as, not the forty seventh person on the team, but the twelfth person on the team. And not just about being able to build again a strategy from the ground up, but also being able to support and help to build a culture from the ground up. Which is, I think, one of the key things that it takes to actually build and scale a company is not only thinking about your role or the team that you're building but thinking once again about how do we unify and scale in the healthiest way possible while keeping the vision. So, this is really exciting milestone for me and I'm really looking forward to the next challenge to be able to stay in this space and help to continue to build the future of the space as well.
Aurelie 23:47
Congratulations, congratulation! It's a, it's great news for this company here for the space as well, yes. So, as a leader, you recruit people all the time. And I'd like to ask you what are the qualities that you're looking for? What are the qualities that one needs to work in tech?
Shiran Brodie 24:12
Yeah, that's a great question. I think of course, it depends on the role, but there's a few pieces that I say are very important. University, of course, is something that a lot of people have. But I think that the thing that university doesn't give you is it's not just about gaining the experience, but it's really making an effort to truly understand the market that you're in and being able to adapt. I oftentimes find that when I'm sitting in an interview with someone I don't want to just know about straightforward answers to questions. I really want to hear this, the psychology behind the decisions that they've made, both good decisions and bad decisions. I often find that mistakes and failures are key to growing and to moving forward. And so, when I can hear that a person is able to have the awareness to dissect the mistakes that they've made or even the accomplishments they've made, why did you, how did you accomplish that? Why do you consider that a success? Why was that a failure and what did you learn from it? I have a team member on my team that, when she first started with me, she was quite junior and I think, she didn't have the experience, but what she had there was also the mindset and the ability to think. And I think with tech or with any marketing role, it's not just coming in and sitting down in front of a computer, working nine to five, typing what you have to do. This is this is an old way of doing things and automation is starting to replace this. But being able to actually sit and think about the market, to think about the challenges, to not only take work that you might have done a year ago, but saying, OK, maybe that work made sense a year ago, but now it doesn't make sense anymore. Maybe it made sense. The previous company, but in this company, with this market, with these types of customers, it doesn't make sense and it's really about applying the thought. And I think what I always look for are number one people that want to have a level of intimacy with customers. There's nothing worse than hearing someone that wants to come into a team in marketing and doesn't have any interest to understand our customers in a deeper level. You will always Make mistakes that you will not be able to come back from if you don't Make it a priority to. Have that deep connection with your customer base. It's critical. Oftentimes people fall into the trap of marketing for themselves. That's one of the biggest mistakes you can do, and it can set you back. So much if you come in with the mindset of understanding the market, understanding the customers and you build for them, you will get so far ahead and even further than the experience you've gotten in previous companies because you're making an effort to truly understand what this market is about. So that's one of the main things that I look for, passion because for me, everything that I do, and everyone it may knows this about me. This company has been my heart and soul for 2 and a half years. When I built the brand, it wasn't just a project for me. It wasn't just something to do. I, we worked probably for the two months prior to launch, my team and I worked insane days. I think the week of the launch we worked 17-hour days, five days in a row. And it's not something I, for me when I do this, when I did this launch, I wasn't going to going on these trips for the week or going anywhere. I was in the trenches with my team, working hand in hand with them. If there was anything, nothing was above me. Nothing or nothing was below me. There was nothing that I wouldn't do to make this launch a success, and my team members were the same way. We all had that mindset, and it's not something you want to expect team members to do all the time. You don't want them to have to work crazy hours, but you want to know that there's a passion and a fuel to see something to succeed, to see your work that's out there and to know that that's something you've accomplished. And that's just a trait that I think I can tell when a person talks to me how passionate they are about the work that they do. And I think having a passion in tech is very important. And that's something else that I think it's when you find it, when you find someone who has that and you want, when you find someone who wants to learn. These are qualities that you really want to seize and take advantage of.
Aurelie 28:22
Yeah, I think that. I think I recognize what you say. It reminds me some discussions I had with other leaders in the space. Maybe one advice that you would give to young women starting their career?
Shiran Brodie 28:42
Yes, this is because I have a lot of young women that have started their careers with me, so I can give the same advice that I give them. I think it's a matter of not being afraid to make mistakes. It's very easy to come into a company and to want to just play it very safe and to do only what you're told. Only this to not ask questions, to not disagree. I always tell everyone on my team that I welcome disagreements and I welcome challenges because if I knew everything that my team members did, I would be a terrible leader because I'd be spending way too much time in the details and not enough time helping them lead and empowering them. I had a new, one of the girls on my team who started who was new, she started managing influencers, and influencers are very interesting thing because this is a channel that changes all the time. I mean, because the social networks change all the time where you're seeing where you're following influencers changes. And she was observing so much and when she brought this to me, she didn't just say to me: “OK, here's this, looks good or this looks good and that's that”. She came and she gave me her opinions based off the discussions she was having, the things she was doing. She had only been with the company for six months, before that she was out of university. But she was always, she was never afraid to think and to give her feedback. And I think that for any young women that in the industry, let your voice be heard. It's so important to show the thought that the thought process, the fact that you are taking the time to dissect, to think, to make critical decisions, not just, I would say if you want to move forward, never be afraid to think or to challenge. Obviously, it's important to pay attention to those who are more senior who have put the time in. A lot of times their advice comes from a place of experience, but it's very important to, when you come in, not just sit and follow, but also to really think and challenge and learn in that way. Aurelie 30:41
And what if, and I say this because it happened to me, what if you're in an environment that doesn't let you do that?
Shiran Brodie 30:51
Yeah, that's a very difficult, that's a very difficult question, I think. This is, I'll be very careful with this advice, but I will give it. The reason that I wanted to be in management and the reason that I've always wanted to be a leader is because I have remembered what it's been like to be in environments where my creative thought and my opinions were stifled. And I think that there was a time for me to learn. But also I was always someone that no matter how junior I was, no matter how inexperienced I was, I was always thinking and I was always wanting to make sure that I could put my thought out there. I think it's very important for, if you're in a situation where, it's not really encouraged, of course you can put the time in, gain the experience, and there's nothing wrong with that. But I also say that when you're joining a company, even as a junior in your even as a junior female, when you're being interviewed, don't forget to interview in return. Because if you are someone who wants to learn and wants to improve, you need to ensure that the leader that's taking you on is willing to do that with you. And if they are, they should be encouraging you to think. They should not just be encouraging you to do and to not have any thoughts at. I don't understand that thought process. I never have. And once again, it's not saying that you should be questioning every single thing that your manager or your leader tells you. That's not the point that I'm making, but you will be noticed so much faster when the ideas that you bring to the table are ideas based off what you've learned and what you've thought about. So, I think it's important, number one, to think about the place that you're in. Think about if this is the right move for your career growth, and if it's just a matter of gaining experience, gain the experience. Watch what others are doing, learn from them. But think about what are the qualities that I want to take with me and what are the things, what are the things that I've seen others do. That I don't want to take with me in the next place, because that in and of itself is also a learning experience, and that's also how I learned and evolved. Aurelie 32:48
That's a great advice. Thank you for sharing that, Shiran.
I know that the question of having more diversity in tech is important for you. And can you tell us why?
Shiran Brodie 33:07
Sure. This is a difficult subject for me to talk about because I have seen and have been a part of so many workplaces where men are taken more seriously than women just by being men, people, Caucasians are taken more seriously than African-Americans just because they're Caucasian. And it's something that I think it's ridiculous to say. No personal experiences to no personal. See this. It's just a fact. It exists and it exists everywhere. For me, what I found is that when I've seen these types of behaviors or seen these types of traits, I've also seen companies that are unable to move forward in the right ways. And I think when I talk about diversity, and it's not so much just the standard of we need to be diverse for the sake of being diverse. Sure, that's an important value, and I think that's something companies should strive for naturally. But there's something else that diversity leads to and it's just the idea and it goes back to what I had said earlier. Which is different points of view, different ways of seeing the world, different ways of seeing the market, different ways of seeing your product and the company. At Make, we have people from all over the world and every person brings a really different view of the product, not only the product but also the countries that they come from. For instance, I know that France has a really incredible no code market. I have a very soft spot for the French no code market. I have some French colleagues that have shared those experiences. Why the French market is so good for no code. And it's just having someone who represents that, who can bring that in and speak for it really opens your eyes and makes you think beyond what and the area that you're in. And I think, when companies try to make everyone the same or bring everywhere, they're never going to challenge the status quo. And it's not just about challenging the status quo or being better. It's also that you create an environment where people, they're not empowered, they're not motivated and they're put down and eventually, even if they're there because they need the job and because they're afraid to leave this type of animosity grows and I've seen it before, I've seen what it does to a company, I've seen what it does to a team and it's really detrimental. It's something that I think it's not the future for me. It's something that I think needs to be stopped in so many ways because when you see it happening whether you like it or not, it will be something that will negatively impact the culture and the morale at some point in the future and whether or not the product is the best product in the world. Your product is only as strong as the people that are building it. Aurelie 35:54
Yeah, that's a very good point and I'd like to say also that it helps also to represent better your customer base because your customer base is diverse as well. I was shocked to learn that the automotive industry is very male-dominated as well, but 85 % of the purchasing decisions are made by women. Meaning that there is this discrepancy of what the company, how the companies run and the customer base; and to your point of being close to your customers, I mean, as you say, every company should look for more diversity and more diverse teams anyway. Maybe the problem that companies have is that the pool of candidates of female candidates is so tiny because all studies show that women are less attracted to tech. So, what do you want to tell them about this? What should we, what do you want to tell women about working in tech? Shiran Brodie 37:14
I think one of the reasons is because tech in and of itself sounds very technical and while the coding industry is starting to increase in diversity, it's always been predominantly male. And I think that women stereotypically and by nature our confidence is not the same as men. When we do an interview, we are more likely to think we're not going to get the job. We are more likely to go for a lower salary. We are more likely to be grateful for what's given to us rather than shoot for what's above. And when this happens and you see that their tech industry is a more technical, you're scared, you're thinking, “OK, maybe this isn't for me, maybe I won't understand. I won't be able to do it, tech is more of a male area.” And, I think the advice that I can give is there are so many different roles within tech, and it doesn't require any, sometimes any coding knowledge to understand marketing and tech. Or many jobs in tech can be so creative they can really allow you to. Once again, I think when it comes to human psychology, feeling empathy, understanding emotions, understanding people, which I think women by nature are known for being quite good at, these skills are so important in tech, they're so critical. And so, tech is also a booming industry and it it's the markets getting better and better all the time. The job outlook is amazing, and I think, the number one thing I can say is many of the women that I've interviewed that have, or that I've spoken to, let's say not interview, because if they're interviewed they're already at the point where they're at least considering it, but many of the women that I've spoken to who have not even considered the tech industry, the primary reason I've been told is because, ‘oh, it seems like I wouldn't understand’ or ‘it's too, it would be too technical for me’. And I think that to look deeper, the tech industry is so diverse, it can mean anything. There can be products that are not even only for advanced technical users. And just to think about what the skill sets are that you have that could be applied here and to recognize that those are critical skill sets that are needed in this industry. Maybe being this mindset where you want to learn as well, yes, and this kind of goes back to one of the reasons why I think teams in general were they're not just looking for seniors, they're looking for junior members as well. They're out of university. I strive to hire women in these types of roles because I think when they're brought in earlier and they have the opportunity to learn and grow fast, we create a better future for women in the tech workplace. We create opportunity for them, and we also create a better network, so more women that are in tech. Means more women that will see tack as viable option. Aurelie 40:01
Awesome! So, about that, do you have any advice for a woman who feels alone and wants to get helped or get more in an environment where they can have discussions, and what would you recommend to them?
Shiran Brodie 40:25
Sure. Well, first I think it's really normal to feel alone as a woman in tech, it's very normal feel. That there aren't others that you can truly network with in the same way. And I think I haven't done this personally because I think my interesting quality about myself is that I've always been, I've always believed that being overly confident, showing confidence will allow you to believe in yourself more and be able to build a real, authentic sense of confidence over time. It was not always this way for me, and imposter syndrome was a very difficult thing for me to navigate, but there's so many mentoring groups and I think that being able, you can look them up on LinkedIn, you can find them on Google. There are so many women in tech mentoring areas. I wouldn't say so many, but I would say there's enough online, there's enough you can find where you can really not only, it's not only about workshops or about courses, but it's a really about the opportunity to be exposed to other women in technology and to hear their stories and to speak with them. And I think that having that, getting to know those women on a deeper level and thinking about where they came from, a lot of people think, oh, this woman must have come from MIT, or she must have Stanford! I didn't have that option myself, and I think that being able to have even just a few people that you can communicate with, you can even go to meetup.com, they'll oftentimes there's local groups, but just having enough sessions where you can really ask those questions where you can get to know them, get to know what they've done, I think that helps to kind of lower the barriers that women feel exist between them and being able to break into this industry.
Aurelie 42:06
Yes, thank you. Thank you for your insights and your testimony. Last words on yourself maybe, is there a cause or an NGO that you support, and you you'd like to speak about it?
Shiran Brodie 42:24
For me, there's not, there isn't one that I would say is particularly marketing related, but there is a nonprofit called Women who code, and I know that this is a little bit different because this is in tech, but it's not necessarily marketing, but I think that I've always been really passionate about this because this in a way almost creates a natural effect for women who are in marketing in tech is that the more women that you see who are coding, the more women that you see on these professions that are predominantly male and often seen as gate kept by men, the more that we start to see females in tech spaces. And so this one is particularly when we've had the chance to support them, we've had the chance to kind of invest in these NGO's, we always have. Simply because being able to see women in these roles is quite critical.
Aurelie 43:17
I agree. And I think it should start at school, like at a young age. And this is one of the biggest challenges. Challenge of our societies is that from a very young age we have cultural biases and including the parents, who are not always considering tech as a domain where their daughters can strive. And so, it's big because it's systemic, but we can start with little steps like having testimonies like yours. So thank you very much for accepting my invitation, and I look forward to publishing your testimony and of course to continuing this discussion with you anytime!
Shiran
Thank you agreed.